It felt like I was dying...but 21 specialists said I was fine.

🎉 The inaugural episode of the podcast!

Jack shares his personal journey through years of strange and frustrating health issues — dizziness, jaw pain, racing heart, ER visits — that no specialist seemed able to solve. From endless specialist doctor visits devoid of diagnoses to the land of chiropractors and acupuncturists, he opens up about what it felt like to be told “you’re fine” when he definitely wasn’t.

Enter Marce, a licensed clinical massage therapist, Structural Energetic Therapy and Functional Patterns practitioner with 20+ years of experience. Together, Jack and Marce dig into the root causes of these “computer injuries,” the role of posture and fascia, and why so many of us just feel broken after years at a desk.

This conversation sets the stage for a podcast about recovery, resilience, and taking back ownership of your body.

Links & Concepts Mentioned

• Functional Patterns
• Functional Patterns Practioner Directory
• Structural Energetic Therapy
• EZ Water
• The Fascia System
• Posture & Anxiety

Jack:
All right. So the idea for this podcast kind of came from my personal experience, which, but maybe not everybody listening does. I haven't told everybody, but I've been in the tech industry for 20 years since college. Really? Before that, really, I've always been a computer kid, and as someone who's hunched over their computer all the time, I had no idea what hunching over a computer does to your body, especially over the course of decades.

So my story kind of starts four years ago, and I'm going to keep this brief because I'll lose everybody right away if I get too detailed. But basically, I want to tell my story because I want to see if it's part of your story. If you're listening, if any of this sounds like something, you've gone through someone and you're wondering, what is going on with my body? Why is everybody telling me you're fine and I don't feel fine? I want this podcast to at least start out as a place of, we might have some answers for you or some things that you can try, and I'm just the guy who had it happen to him, the regular person, Marcy, I mean, I'm going to call you the expert. You're the wizard on the edge of town. You're the body mechanic who literally helped put me back together when I thought I was dying.

So four years ago, what started happening was I just started randomly getting dizzy, lightheaded, dizzy, and then one day I woke up and I couldn't open my mouth. It was just like my jaw was locked tight and there's nothing I could do about it. I was just stuck. This had happened once or twice before when I was a teenager, and that wasn't a great feeling. Something's definitely wrong. So went to the doctor and he gave me, as doctors do, he gave me antibiotics saying, oh, it's probably you've got an infection or you got inflammation, and we'll get rid of that. And so we did a round of antibiotics. It slowly got better, but probably would've slowly...

Marce:
Your jaw?

Jack:
For my jaw, yeah. Yeah.

Marce:
Okay.

Jack:
And then it came back and he gave me another round of antibiotics. I'm like, dude, this, it didn't fix it last time. Why would I have more antibiotics again? So I left him, and that thus started the beginning of a really long journey of figuring out what is going on and symptoms kept getting worse along the way. So it was lightheadedness, dizziness, tight jaw. Then it was neck pain. Then it got to the point where my heart would just race out of nowhere. I would have palpitations, and then my heart rate would just go from 70 to one 30 like that while driving sometimes, which is scary. Super...

Marce:
Safe.

Jack:
Yeah, super safe. I mean, I drove myself to the ER on more than one occasion because I thought I'm having a heart attack. Something's happening. Yeah, and let me just read, this is the list of specialists. I went through trying to figure out what was going on. So I went to the doctor and I'm like, well, maybe it's TMJ. I thought. So I went to a dentist who did an x-ray and saw that I have a lot of extra bone growth from clenching. Your bones are thicker than they should be because all the pressure that you've been putting on your jaw is shouldn't be there. Oh, well least that makes sense. So, all right. It's TMJ. Great. I think I even wrote a blog post about it, like 2000, 2021. You

Marce:
Get fitted with trays.

Jack:
I just got an over the counter one. Yeah,

Marce:
That's usually the money.

Jack:
Yeah, that's right. That's where they get the money. Like, oh, let's give you a custom mouth guard and then you'll be fine. But the whole thing about the mouth guard is you're just clenching into the mouth guard. So the mouth guard protects your teeth, but it doesn't stop the clenching. So I'm like, I want to find the solution, so I need to keep going. So then I went to a spa massage therapist to get a TMJ massage, and then he just rubbed my face and it felt okay. I didn't really do anything.

Marce:
A little relaxing.

Jack:
I mean, sure, it was fine. I didn't hate it. Then I went to an acupuncturist. Then I went to a chiropractor because maybe it's ear crystals. There was maybe an adjustment or two that actually helped a little bit for a day or two, but it didn't stick. Then the heart palpitations started at that point. So I was in the urgent care. I was in the er and they're like, they did scans, they did X-rays, they did E-C-G-A-K-J-L. I'm like, you're fine. We can't find anything. Like

Marce:
You wore a heart monitor.

Jack:
Yep, exactly. Got referred to a cardiologist, followed up, did that whole thing. He's like, I don't know. You're healthy. We did ultrasound, my arteries and all that. I don't know. You're healthy, dude. You're fine. It's in your head. Yeah, it's in your head. That's the line when they don't know what to say. It's like it's in your head.

Marce:
Well, and unfortunately, that's usually where they start with women.

Jack:
At least

Marce:
Men, they'll run a lot of the tests.

Jack:
So I did get tests, but I mean going to the ER is there for five hours, six hours, and they're like, I have chest pain. Cool. We'll get to it. When you, isn't that the secret code to get in the line? You're like, I'm having chest pain. They should drop everything. They're like, okay, wait. In the chest pain section where everyone else is like,

Marce:
Right. The people 40 years older than you are going to probably get you.

Jack:
Right. Exactly. He's healthy, he's fine.

Marce:
Right.

Jack:
Holistic doctor who said he was going to put me on more supplements I could ever imagine. That's kind of a little red flag.

Marce:
Been there, done that.

Jack:
Yep. I've tried that. Vestibular specialist ran a bunch of tests. We can talk about that someday. That was a weird experience. A couple more chiropractors, physical rehab neurologists eventually got to the point where I saw a counselor like, it's not going to get any better. I just need to learn how to accept this. I need to learn how to live with this.

Marce:
A grief counselor or something

Jack:
Almost. So my church has a ministry that has counseling and they have a bunch of trained counselors. So actually I ended up meeting the counselor was my pastor, but he's like, dude, this sounds like generalized anxiety. This sounds like anxiety. That's the heart racing and all this kind of stuff, and this is after a couple years ended up taking his advice and talking to a psychiatrist, got a script for Lexapro, and that helped the heart palpitations. That was gone, but that's pretty much all it did. I think maybe when it would get really bad, I would start to freak out and have actual anxiety because you're worried what's going on with your body? I feel like I'm dying. What's going on reason?

Marce:
Years

Jack:
Of trying to figure out what's wrong with you. So it helped get out of that feedback loop of what's going on? I'm freaking out. What's going on? I'm freaking out. And then that heart rate stuff, but it still wasn't the answer.

Marce:
Well, or the idea that anxiety isn't occurring because there's something physical too. They want to always separate them so much, but they generally are working hand in hand. If your body isn't feeling safe, you will have a generalized anxiety about not feeling comfortable because your nervous system doesn't have a place to land essentially. It's constantly in some sort of fight or flight, so you're not Yeah. That is strange though that they can't really holistically look at the thing,

Jack:
And I would've thought that along that list, which there's an osteopath in, there's some other people in there, but the long and the short of it was all these different people. There's an allergist in there.

Marce:
To say, what would physical therapy look like for that too?

Jack:
Physical therapy was dry needling.

Marce:
Sizes. Oh, okay. Okay.

Jack:
Yeah, which actually we did talk about at some point.

Marce:
Pretty good.

Jack:
Which was some helpful, especially for the jaw pain, specifically doing dry needling in your macers was actually helpful, but all of that going around and around literally all around Florida, trying to get into people having to cash pay to skip the line because otherwise like, okay, we'll see you in eight months. You're like, and if I just gave you a pile of cash, would you see me? And they're like, oh, let me go talk to somebody. They're like, yeah, we can see you in three weeks. You're like, okay. So I spent a ton of money

Marce:
Trying

Jack:
To do this thing as we do, trying to figure this out. Health.

Marce:
Well, yeah.

Jack:
Along the way I also had separate, but now that I really realize also related some shoulder pain and some back pain,

Marce:
And

Jack:
I was recommending to see you from a friend because you do amongst other things. Massage therapy are very good at it, and you're welcome. Thank you. Turns out a lot more than just how to make somebody relax and through what started with, Hey, can you help me with my shoulder pain? You're like, oh, as soon as you started working on me, you've got some stuff. I think you got some problems. You got some neck stuff, you got some.

Marce:
I try to be nice

Jack:
About. Yes, you were nice. You were nice. But in that process of working through that, realize actually learning how your body works, learning the role of fascia and really learning about how the whole problem kind of lives in this nine inches between my what? My C seven and my C one. All this stuff happens right here. And so all of those problems, or at least most of them were stemming from

Marce:
Cervical instability,

Jack:
Cervical instability,

Marce:
Dysregulation,

Jack:
And from having my

Marce:
Head forward posture,

Jack:
Head forward posture

Marce:
From

Jack:
Being at a computer and to think that I could spend tens of thousands of dollars and four years hunting for an answer that honestly was kind of obvious. It's

Marce:
Too obvious, right? It's

Jack:
Too obvious. Yeah.

Marce:
That's why it's not,

Jack:
And

Marce:
It requires you to make a personal effort to change.

Jack:
Correct. There is no magic pill that you can just take,

Marce:
Which unfortunately our system,

Jack:
Yeah,

Marce:
As we talked about, the magic pill,

Jack:
They don't exist.

Marce:
Right.

Jack:
Nothing you can take once that will fix anything.

Marce:
Right. Anytime you go, they're going to say, take this for at least a month to two months every day,

Jack:
Sometimes

Marce:
Twice a day around food, not around food. You're going to have all these different things that you have to do, but

Speaker 4:
Exactly. But

Marce:
You will do that for that pill, but doing something else might be a little bit outside of your wheelhouse you might not feel comfortable doing or it will require effort and an effort that you haven't usually made before.

Jack:
Right, exactly. And in your experience, you've done the, you've been on the other side of people like me for how long?

Marce:
25 years.

Jack:
25 years, exactly.

Marce:
But I've also been where you are too, so it's in the same place.

Jack:
When you finally told me what you went through, I was like, okay, if she could come back from that. I think with your help, maybe I can come back from this and I've gone from a year even as, so this is, we're recording this in August, 2025, as recent as maybe February or March of this year, maybe about a year ago. I don't know. How long have we been doing, can you

Marce:
Remember? Almost a year.

Jack:
Almost a year.

Marce:
Yeah.

Jack:
My

Marce:
New space.

Jack:
So about a year ago, I still had moments where I thought I might be dying. Actually, on two occasions I wrote a goodbye letter to my family because I thought I was dying. I thought it was so bad. Basically what I now know is thoracic compression, troon, all this stuff was so tight on my heart that I'm like, this is it. It's going numb, not my arm's numb. And then you're Googling what's, is that a myth too? No,

Marce:
Elizabeth

Jack:
From

Marce:
Sanford and Son, remember

Jack:
Sanford and Son,

Marce:
You're too young for that.

Jack:
No, no, no. We're practically the same age. We're very close. Sanford son is right. That one. Yeah.

Marce:
He would always grab his heart and go, Elizabeth, I'm

Jack:
So good. No, I do remember that. Do you remember that? I am old also. I'm in my forties now. I just pretend I play a young person on tv.

Marce:
I see. Keep it.

Jack:
Yeah. But all that to say, you've been doing this for 25 years over

Marce:
A little over 25 years now. Yep,

Jack:
Exactly. So you've seen a lot. You've done a lot. That's kind of my story, and if any of those things sound like something that our listener, which we have none yet, but we're hoping we'll get some,

Marce:
We'll see

Jack:
If this is useful for you, please tell us because we want to do this because she knows a lot. I've gone through a lot. I feel like between the two of us, we can kind of unpack a lot of things that will help people like me.

Marce:
We can troubleshoot some issues.

Jack:
Exactly. And so yeah, dizziness, lightheadedness, nausea.

Marce:
Nausea,

Jack:
Yeah, I would feel like I was going to pass out. The room would go vaso, vagal syncope, that kind of stuff.

Marce:
Kind the bobblehead pulsing feelings.

Jack:
Yep.

Marce:
I get that. Some headaches. I don't think you did a lot of headaches.

Jack:
Not too much pressure. Yeah, it would be lower and other general aches and pains of sitting at a desk too low back issues, wrist problems are like that's everybody ends up with, you start out with the keyboard they give you at your first job and that's fine. And then you get older and you're like, well, now I need an ergonomic keyboard and a mouse and the thing. And I've, we'll have some listeners who have vertical mice and split keyboards that are on their laps in two separate pieces and the stuff it takes to keep sitting at that desk and

Marce:
Oh no, I call it computer injuries. When I see my clients, I'm like, oh, you work at a computer. You have computer injuries. They just laugh. But it's something I just created as a way to explain to them the trauma that they're actually putting through their body when they're thinking that they're sedentary, they're thinking they're just not moving an inch, but is the human body designed to not move an inch? So it's actually very kind of traumatic to put it in those frozen tet knee positions and expect it, especially our postural muscles that run all the time to be constantly running. They need a break. You need to sit, lay down or get up and walk around. So usually just punching over a keyboard is interest to your spine, to your head, to your neck. So I try and explain that.

Jack:
Yeah, I call them when I'm trying to tell people it's just a slow motion injury. It doesn't happen in one second. It happens in those prolonged states where you're in that position. We

Marce:
Call it kind of repetitive motion, but that's almost repetitive non motion. So I

Jack:
Dunno what you would call that. Repetitive strain injury or repetitive.

Marce:
Repetitive

Jack:
Stillness, perpetual state injury. We can coin a new phrase. There

Marce:
We go. I like it. I like it. But it is, it's just very unnatural. And I also call that mouse arm is similar to driving leg, like gas pedal leg. So anytime you have a part of your body that has to act independently and then stay on and just,

Jack:
Yeah, most people do that

Marce:
Are

Jack:
Right-handed. Most people end up with carpal tunnel in their right hand. It's like, oh, it's my mouse hand.

Marce:
And then like you're saying, a lot of 'em are adjusting wrists and things like that, but where is it coming from? Where are you actually lifting your arm from? So we can talk about ourselves as mechanistic in principles of mechanistic thought, but the body all works together. So if something's down the chain, it's probably going up the chain. It's probably going across. So there's going to be an alternate muscle group that's having to function as well, or dysfunction, I guess.

Jack:
Yeah, exactly. I dunno, I think that's a good baseline if that's the sort of thing you're interested in or want to find help with. That's at least where we're going to start with this podcast is covering the topics on what you can actually do to prevent or correct and

Marce:
Or just comprehensively understand, and then it's up to you whether you want to change that or not, I guess.

Speaker 4:
Exactly.

Marce:
But at least if you could understand maybe what is causing it, you would have more information to make that judgment on your own.

Jack:
Right. Exactly.

Marce:
Which is all I try to bring to people. Yes,

Jack:
And I realize not everybody has you or somebody like you in their area, so there's some things you can do. There's things that you've shown me to do myself when really if it's really bad, you might need to find somebody that can help you.

Marce:
Maybe we can work on forming a network or

Jack:
Something.

Marce:
Yeah,

Jack:
Exactly. Because just ye old standard massage therapist is not exactly her

Marce:
Title.

Jack:
No. Yeah. Do you want to talk about your background at all?

Marce:
We could. Sure. I am originally from Ohio, so I trained in my original massage license there and it's about a two year program compared to other places like California or Florida where it can be six, seven months. My teacher, I was very, very lucky to be at a very small school with an amazing instructor who was a homeopathic doctor. He was a DO doctor of osteopathic medicine. He was a naturopath, so herbalism, stuff like that. And he now runs an adic portion of the education now. So I've always said I would love to go back and do that now that he's completely filled that out. They just really taught us true myofascial work,

Marce:
True

Marce:
Trigger trigger points. We had cadaver lab studies. It was just much more anatomical, physiological based. We had study on pathology at the end of every chapter, medications, all the things you should and shouldn't do, which I think a lot of massage therapists are doing things that they shouldn't be doing because they don't know better

Marce:
And

Marce:
They just want to help, which is a lot of the reasons why we come into this field and they're maybe not helping as much as they could be if they had just stayed and educated themselves longer.
Then when I moved down here, I started doing the work that I do mostly now, which is the cranial work. It's something called structural energetic therapy and was created by Don McCann over in Tampa and it has a cranial components, some intraoral components that we know are lens of fun

Jack:
And for layman, intraoral means all up in your mouth

Marce:
All up in there.

Jack:
Yeah. That was a really bizarre first experience. You're like, and now I'm going to go in your mouth and I'm like at a massage.

Marce:
Yeah, so that's why I only do word of mouth. I do know advertising because you have to know what you're going to get into.

Jack:
Yeah. When I refer you, I'm like, just so you know, she's going to go all up in your mouth and they're like, I get to see their reaction first and then I do, or

Marce:
I would love to hear how my clients actually explain be a fly on a wall for that conversation because yes, I've heard some really interesting things on the other side. Do I do that? I guess I do. I guess I didn't notice I did that,

Jack:
But that piece was, that was probably the most critical piece to you helping me get back to a place where I felt like a normal person. Again, it's like my brain fog and cognitive ability was so reduced and I mean, I don't know what the mechanism for that is that just blood flow is that compression, nerve compression. But I'd gotten to the point where I couldn't hold a thought in my head.

Marce:
That's a lot of C1.

Jack:
It would gone and I would be writing and I would forget how to write sometimes or my letters would flip and I would get momentarily dyslexic and my letters would start writing inverted.

Marce:
Interesting.

Jack:
Not good.

Marce:
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. A lot of that I do think is C one. So we've talked a little bit about this, but C one is a washer, so if you know what all the other vertebra look like, they have little pointy things on them.

Jack:
They kind of like interlock sort of. Yeah.

Marce:
You've seen a deer or jewelry. Every vertebra has these little bones that kind of poke off your prominences C one doesn't really have those. It's just kind of a round, they call it a washer. So it sits right in between your ox foot and then of course C two. And I think it only shifts, it doesn't rotate. I think C two is where you start getting rotation. So it has a very limited range.

Jack:
It's like the pedestal that everything sits on.

Marce:
It's the connector, right? Because you have this big thing going into this smaller thing, you need a little bit of a connection piece. So the body makes that in and of itself is the most unstable place in the entire body. Surprise. So then we add that to contend.

Jack:
That's the one that as computer people droop out over things.

Marce:
And it's usually the one that in our society with our head down phones, forward facing everything. People tend to really create a lot of dysfunction around their C1. But as you're saying all the way down to C7, so pretty much the whole cervical spine gets Yeah, takes that dysfunction and then we can't leave it alone. Then the rest of the spine has to do something to compensate for that. So that's where the cranial corrections come in. We look at a body not just as, okay, my shoulder hurts, but not to get too in depth, but we actually actually utilize some different distortion patterns. So we have them named, we can test for them, and then we just figure out which pattern or which patterns a person is stacking and then we start unstacking them.
So we will use different protocols, so I might not work your entire body all at once. So I'm doing different pieces and parts to get the body to start to pull itself back into balance. The major problem I see with most massage therapists is it's arm, arm, leg, leg. You're always face down, rub your back, and there's not a lot of differentiation in the size of the body. So if you're in what we would call a torsion pattern or a sheer pattern, if you did everything exactly the same, you would just be a little less. You still be in this shear, but a little less tight.

Jack:
Sure, sure.

Marce:
We wouldn't change the dysfunction underlying anything. We would just change the muscular tension on top of it. So it's just kind of not as fun. If you want to make actual change or get actual results with your clients, you have to go into these deeper discussions with the body. So we use different protocols, different cranial releases and different tests to figure out which one we're going to do for that session, which one's kind of in the hierarchy that day.
So that's the other good thing is that each time you come in for a session, it's going to be different. You're not just going to get the same session every day

Jack:
And like a spa massage, which might literally be the same, whatever you like the sound effects,

Marce:
I call it rubbing the lotions, so it rubs the lotions on me. I don't know why it creeps me out when I go and get those massages because I'm just like, oh, what are we doing here?

Jack:
You want a nice assisted nap

Marce:
Or you just come out dripping in oils and yeah, so don't coming from a more medical training background, then when I started doing set, it really unlocked a lot of information and the potential of what I could do with people in each session and then of course started doing functional patterns,

Jack:
Functional patterns

Marce:
About five years ago, and that changed my life and completely helped me with a lot of the residual headaches and little things that I was still dealing with with some of my trauma and my body problems. Then that just really icing on the cake, just kind of put the other side onto everything for me and really gave me a comprehensive package to work with people now so I can do the release portion and then of course we can pull tension back into the body.

Marce:
The idea that intentionally we should just never have tension. We actually, we need tension to be standing up. We need tension to be erect as humans, but where is that tension? Is the tension in a dysfunctional place or is it in the place that the body likes that tension to be? So if it's all in the front of the body and pulling you down, then it's probably not going to like that. If you can find your center worn down and your pelvic floor, you're going to be happier neurologically too. Your nervous system's going to feel more safe and then some of those symptomologies will go away. Hopefully.

Jack:
Hopefully. That's the hope.

Marce:
That's the idea.

Jack:
And in practice it did work for me. It does work. It does work, yeah. Does work. Yeah. Now functional patterns is a specific movement pattern. It's an organization that, I mean, I know what it is, but I'm trying to decide how to explain it. It's not just functional fitness as a broad term. Functional patterns is a very specific set of movements and strategies and

Marce:
And that's been the biggest problem is a lot of people are kind of lumping functional patterns into functional fitness now. Just

Jack:
In general. Yeah. It's like, oh, it's like unbranded CrossFit. It's functional fitness. That's not it.

Marce:
It's 100%.

Jack:
It is exercise. I have not done anything. Not, I used to do CrossFit. That's how I hurt my shoulders. I enjoyed it. It was fun. Squatting 300 pounds was like macho. You

Marce:
Got up to 300 pounds?

Jack:
Three, 300. Yeah, I did.

Marce:
You got your knees and that.

Jack:
I still have, still have my knees. Still good. Can't tell you how many times I hurt my back deadlift.

Marce:
I was going to say,

Jack:
And yeah, clean and jerks. That's how I hurt my shoulders. Clean and Jerk. Turns out not a great motion, anyway.

Marce:
I just tell people if the word jerks in it... don't do it.

Jack:
Yeah maybe don't do it. It's probably not going to for you. Sorry. If you love clean and jerks,

Marce:
It's like, what is that though? The idea of jerk? You know what I mean?
Really think about that for a second, and then

Jack:
You're going to make a whipping motion and do 180 degree quick motion with your arms. Oh,

Marce:
That kipping stuff.

Jack:
And the kipping stuff. Yeah.

Marce:
I watched the cross CrossFit games,

Jack:
The CrossFit gym I did go to, we didn't kipp. They definitely rounded out all those sharp corners. All that to say they disaffiliated was like, maybe we shouldn't be doing these things. They got rid of barbells for six months. It was a good, I loved being there back in New York before I moved to Florida and the owner of that gym, I'd love to have him on the podcast sometime, and he's a really smart guy who's like, oh yeah, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe he's on the same journey in a lot of ways that I've been all that to say functional patterns.
I've been doing only functional patterns for exercise now for probably at least six months. I've not curled or deadlifted or squatted or anything, and I feel so much better in my body. People ask me, are you working out? I'm like, yes. If you looked at me while I was doing it, you would wonder what I was doing. And that's really fun as we'll. Kind of talk about and probably show you some, this is going to be an interesting thing about this podcast because functional patterns is going to come up a lot, but you can't share everything about it because it is a proprietary intellectual property. Aspects of it are ip, so we want to be sensitive to that and not get in trouble or get sued. Also,
I am going to be taking the functional patterns Human foundation's course to be a practitioner. Just I want to learn this stuff better, so now I'm under an NDA. If you're going to take that, you have an NDA, so I do need to be careful about that as you are too, as all that to say. There are some things we can certainly explain, talk about show, but then to go deeper down that particular road might need to just point you to some resources.

Marce:
Absolutely.

Jack:
They have a 10 week week course. Yeah, look, find a local trainer. They have a whole database. It's great, but we're not going to go into depth on that. It's too soon. This is the first episode. Yes.

Marce:
But it is life-changing, and if you're already exercising, might as well do something that's going to make you feel better and not worse.

Jack:
Correct. Yeah, and it's amazing how much it does so quickly and in what basically looks like sometimes just slow motion or standing still and you're breaking a sweat and you're about to fall over. What are you doing, Jack? I'm holding tension. Tension. I'm holding a lot of tension in really specific places and I'm moving it around my body intentionally,

Marce:
Intentionally.

Jack:
Intentionally.

Marce:
Can't really specific places.

Jack:
Yeah, exactly.

Marce:
Those are all the key.

Jack:
Those are the key words. That is what functional patterns is, and that's what separates it from just exercise in general.

Marce:
Everything else.

Jack:
Everything else.

Marce:
Yeah. Well, and the idea of exercise too. We tend to want to do exercises to make ourselves feel better, of course, to look good

Jack:
And everyone tells you it's good for you,

Marce:
And generally what we're doing is a motion similar to what we're doing all day that's also dysfunctional. So if that's where nude created a lot of this stuff is if you're already working in this sagittal plane,

Jack:
The sagal plane is

Marce:
Front right? For up and down,

Jack:
Up and down. So like a squat,

Marce:
Right?

Jack:
A squat is very curl

Marce:
Or even basic curl.

Jack:
Everything's

Marce:
Just lines straight up and

Jack:
Down, lifting things towards the ceiling. You're putting 'em back down towards the ground. That's the sagittal plane.

Marce:
So if you're already working in that or me, that's what I'm doing all day. It's just like Right,

Jack:
You're leaning over people. You're pushing on 'em

Marce:
Like a hunchback on people, so I shouldn't do more exercises in that position. What should I do? I didn't know until

Jack:
I did it turns out if you're coding, you're at a computer all day or you're a writer or you're a musician or whatever, also you're very sadly focused.

Marce:
Well, and I joke too, our eyes are in the front of our heads.

Jack:
Yours are,

Marce:
If they were in the back, we would all be extension based creatures, but our eyes are in the front, so we're all flexion. No matter if you work in an assembly line, work at a desk, work at a cashier, anywhere, you're going to work your eyes and your hands, everything's going to be in front of you. So you're going to be focused in that flexion position, and you see, as people get older, they start getting really trapped into that position and it starts collapsing. We call it the core collapse. So it's actually literally collapsing down around themselves, which changes the way their head has to be held, which changes their back, which changes almost every piece of their spine, and that's when you really see sc curvatures happening in really, really older people.

Jack:
That's the whole,

Marce:
Right? Because they've collapsed their musculature can't actually pick them back up and out of that anymore,

Jack:
And

Marce:
That's kind of end phase. It's not ideal to be your end phase, but it is, unfortunately for a lot of people, that's how they go down

Jack:
Up.

Marce:
Then you end up tripping. You're going to fall, you're going to break something, you're going to end up with pins and you and you're going to end up on medications, and then you're going to have to have more surgeries, and then you're going to,

Jack:
So instead of doing things that continue to push you, put you in that

Marce:
Further into your further

Jack:
Into that dysfunction, and you've talked about it in the past of it being your movement is sort of creating an invisible cast. If you think about your movement in forward dimension in time, the movements that you make in time kind of create a shape and that's your cast, and if you never bust yourself out of that cast, that's why when you're like, oh, I felt fine, and then all of a sudden I went to reach up and grab something off a shelf and I pulled my shoulder, I pulled my back because you did a quick movement outside your cast, is that

Marce:
Oh, yeah. It's always grabbing your purse in the backseat. Yeah.

Jack:
It's some sort of twisting reaching motion that you're not training, you're not doing ever,

Marce:
And it's usually a rotation always in the up and down. We don't really do a lot of the rotation and not that just adding a rotation is going to fix all the problems, either not what A lot of functional training is kind of

Jack:
Just throwing rotation in just randomly,

Marce:
Right? They're just showing it online. Oh,

Jack:
Well

Marce:
Now

Jack:
I see plenty of Instagram ads for things that'll rotate you for you.

Marce:
Yes.

Jack:
The shoulder one that's like you just swing it around, or

Marce:
Even just those harness things that hold you up into a more proper posture.

Jack:
Oh, right, yeah. Let's fix your posture by using a device

Marce:
Which

Jack:
Now

Marce:
Weakening your core because

Jack:
Yeah, you're now rely on an external device instead of relying on your body to move itself to where it should belong. Right? Yeah.

Marce:
Well, and that's the idea too. A lot of people don't realize how much change they can just force into themselves, and I think once you go through a couple sessions, you're like, oh my gosh. The amount of pressure you can put on yourself to change

Jack:
What

Marce:
You don't like is

Jack:
Just like that. The tension that you can intentionally choose to generate yourself can be so much greater than what I would assume, oh, I need heavier weights to do this, right? Oh, I'm going to pick up. I need fifties, I need hundreds, I need whatever. You keep adding weight to do stuff. Now that I am in my garage sweating, just rotating my torso without my head or my hips, I'm just like, I'm trying to move it and it is wild.

Marce:
What's fun about it?

Jack:
No, it is it actually really fun because I love, the further we get into it, the more it starts to pick up other motions that look like my wife will walk in the garage and she's like, are you doing karate or is that a kata or something? Because sometimes the motions will continue into multiple steps and it does kind of have a tai chi aspect, or at least on the outside it sort of looks like that sort of motion,

Marce:
Slowing down, walking, running, throwing,

Jack:
And

Marce:
Those motions look pretty cool.

Jack:
Yeah,

Marce:
That's fun too, is you can get that athletic warrior mindset because you're doing these types of

Jack:
Movements. Yeah, a hundred percent. And so some of the more, as you get into the functional pattern stuff, you're swinging clubs and heavy weights on ropes and stuff. I don't know. It's kind of cool.

Marce:
It's fun.

Jack:
Yeah,

Marce:
And that's what I always want to have fun when I'm doing something, and so I like to be really, really challenged though too, because I think a really hard challenge is actually fun for me,

Jack:
And

Marce:
So I know a lot of people don't correlate those two things. True,

Jack:
But some do.

Marce:
Right. I think a lot more people do than they realize too,

Jack:
Because

Marce:
If it's just too easy, then it's like, well, it's

Speaker 4:
Boring,

Marce:
Or they'll give you small wins, but then make the plank really hard or something.

Jack:
When I relearned how to plank, I'm like, why is this so hard? I'm still on my knees. I used to be able to plank for minutes.

Marce:
Hold it like five seconds and then you die.

Jack:
Exactly. We're done real quick. Yes.

Marce:
I mean, my trainer, she would end my session with 30 seconds of plank

Speaker 4:
And

Marce:
Then it was a minute and I barely made a minute, but it was,

Speaker 4:
It's

Marce:
Wild. The fact that you can't is

Jack:
It's

Marce:
Most shocking and exciting,

Jack:
And some of these things you're doing are three reps, five reps, maybe a big one would be like eight reps and then it You're done.

Marce:
Yeah.

Jack:
It fits into my day so much better. I don't have to think about it. I don't have to block an hour out to do this kind of stuff where you have to warm up for 15 minutes and then you do your HIIT workout and then you do some weightlifting and then you got to cool down and then you got to stretch. I can just start it right now and it would work. I get the same benefits

Marce:
And you can wear your clothes. You don't have to change your

Jack:
Clothes. Yeah, oftentimes I'm not even sweating. I shower way less. No.

Marce:
Oh, a lot of what I would do would be on the couch when I first started

Speaker 4:
Because

Marce:
Was I had a really traumatic emergency and I had no abdominal connectivity, and so that was something I was battling and doing all these HIIT workouts and doing all these

Jack:
Things and going from that to now I can't hardly move,

Marce:
And I thought, well, okay, I'll do more HIIT workouts, so that wasn't working, and I did that I think till my daughter was almost four,

Marce:
So

Marce:
Four years. I have videos of myself in my living room just slogging away and then yeah, did the 10 week online course. I think probably five months later I did human foundations and it was just boom, boom, boom, boom. From there, all

Jack:
Of a sudden things started to come together

Marce:
And then everything I would do, I would literally just sit in my clothes on the couch trying to figure out where wasn't connecting how to get it back and using different techniques that we'll cover later, and it was just, yeah, my partner would walk into the room and he'd be like, FP all day.

Jack:
That's what my wife does now. And she's like, I'll be making a weird face or in a weird position or something. She's like, doing your fp. I'm like, obviously,

Marce:
Yeah, you're in it to win it now.

Jack:
Exactly. I mean, I'm bought in. Yeah, I mean it may sound like we we're not sponsored by functional patterns.

Marce:
Absolutely not. They probably don't even want us talking.

Jack:
Probably. Probably. Yeah. I dunno. It's hard to say, but it is one piece, a really, really excellent piece, but it is one piece of the different sorts of things that you do and of the things that have been helpful for me,

Marce:
It's kind of called the other side of the coin. So there is the release side and even functional patterns. When I took the 10 week online, a lot of it is myofascial rolling.

Jack:
The first three weeks are all you will lacrosse ball and a medicine ball basically.

Marce:
And when I went into it, I said, he's going to have to do some myofascial release if he wants to get the changes that he's saying he's going to get.

Speaker 4:
Right.

Marce:
And then when I bought the course and he was doing myofascial release, it just made me go, okay, he actually doesn know, he

Speaker 4:
Actually knows what he's talking about

Marce:
And he's on the same page because you can't build a new house on a crappy foundation. You really have to start over in a lot of ways, and if you've built up tension in the wrong places, putting it in the right places doesn't make it just go away from the wrong places. So you do have to do a little bit of erasure

Speaker 4:
In

Marce:
The beginning. So that's the big piece in the beginning is getting all of that worked through. Then you have a decent foundation. You can start building new tensions onto that, but it's not one before the other really, and it's not even both simultaneously. Yeah,

Jack:
It's one very, very specifically first and then the other.

Marce:
Yes.

Jack:
I think maybe that's a good opportunity for us to talk about fascia in general from a high level perspective. It's something that this first episode we kind want to see. Is this the sort of stuff you're interested in? You want to talk about this, you want to here for us, you want to send us your questions? I'm talking to our imaginary listener right now. Absolutely. And if this is the sort of thing you're interested in, here's something that you could learn that I didn't get before meeting Marcy. We did foam rolling. We did. I knew what myofascial release was. I've had grass and work and stuff, but until you really explained how fascia actually works, how they don't teach you in school, they don't even tell you really that it's a thing. At least I didn't in high school or college bio or whatever.

Marce:
So

Jack:
If we can leave you with understanding how the fascia system works, that can be something we can build on in maybe the next episode and start to teach you more how your body actually works and what you can do to take care of it and undo some of the pains that you have. So let's get into fascia. Yeah,

Marce:
So fascia, the way I like to explain it to people is kind of like the pantyhose that runs through your entire body. If you think about when a pantyhose runs, you get a snag in your hose. If you've ever really looked at the hose, the runs down here and then the snag is kind of up here,

Jack:
So

Marce:
It's very similar.

Jack:
I had sisters, so I know what you're talking about. I was going to

Marce:
Say unless pan heels are kind of out of style.

Jack:
Yeah, it's true. Is there another analogy for the guys listening who don't know what pantyhose are anyway?

Marce:
Yeah, I mean

Jack:
It's a webbing. It's like a skin suit over your muscles.

Marce:
Yes. And it's so thin like a pantyhose. So it's also if you've ever eaten a chicken wing,

Jack:
There's

Marce:
A tissue paper like substance around each muscle. I can't even eat chicken wings. I end up dissecting them

Jack:
Muscle. Or if you smoke meats on the ribs, the fascia that you want to peel off the bone to let the smoke get into the actual meat, so you actually are ripping that fascia off.

Marce:
Interesting connective tissue.

Jack:
Yeah, you get a spoon underneath it and then you grab a paper towel and you tear it off.

Marce:
Right, because some of the bigger fascia sheets are around our bones, so that would make

Jack:
Sense. Exactly. Like on the ribs. Yep. Okay, so it covers your whole body,

Marce:
Everything top. That's why the cranial work works is because we're just accessing the fascia at the top at this pheno basler. So basically at the joint between the sphenoid and the occipital bone,

Speaker 4:
I know those words

Marce:
That fascia just tend, we will run down the rest of the body. It doesn't really have an ending or a beginning though, so it's just a

Jack:
Yeah, you don't have your bicep fascia that's just enveloped, just your

Marce:
You do, but it connects to all the other fascia

Jack:
And

Marce:
They can't necessarily be like, oh, it ends at the fingers because it then just wraps back. You know what I mean? There is no definitive. When we do autopsy, there's just no definitive end or beginning.

Marce:
It

Marce:
Kind of just keeps looping back into itself. I should have brought my anatomy book, but there's a great picture where it shows all of the different muscles, spindles. Those are then sheeted in the fascia. It has its own name and I think endo mezo, that whole thing,

Jack:
Those

Marce:
Smaller

Jack:
I know. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Marce:
So then that little group of sections, now you have a bunch of these guys all covered in fascia. Now fascia is going to cover all of them and make them into a group. Now you're going to have groups of those. Those are going to now form a group. I'm doing it big, but it's much smaller and that's going to be your muscle then.

Marce:
So

Marce:
All these little tiny compartments making up bigger and bigger and bigger compartments is what creates

Jack:
The muscle muscle then interconnected via fascia,

Marce:
And when it's in a certain area, it's just in a fascial pocket.

Marce:
And

Marce:
So now that is your bicep, right? It runs from your CHRO vicular joint to your whatever humal joint, whatever it is. That's where it is. That's the muscle. Now they've started talking in the fossil world that there's just all these fossil pockets that it's not necessarily individual muscle groups, which I think is really fascinating because all the muscle groups are connected through the fascia. They are all still working together. So if you have an injury and now the muscle that usually lifts your arm is hurt, some of the other muscles are going to start helping out, so they're going to start doing it. Then you end up in probably pain later on because

Jack:
Of

Marce:
Muscle that's not

Jack:
Supposed to, but it's cool that your body can adapt when this thing is not working. It can find another way. We do. Nature finds a way.

Marce:
Exactly.

Jack:
You continue to function, but there will be a price to pay eventually.

Marce:
Well, and there are some redundancies, which is why our body has done that is because it, I think is knowing that we're going to get injured at some point. That's why we have more teeth that grow and all these different systems. I do wonder there must be

Jack:
My spare arm that I'm growing on my back. Yeah,

Marce:
Some intelligence to that design.

Jack:
I agree. I agree.

Marce:
But what was I saying? Oh yeah, so the fascia, fascial pockets.

Speaker 4:
Yes.

Marce:
I also think that the tendons and the ligaments, basically everything is fascia. So anything named and unnamed has a foal component to it. When that tissue is in its happiest state, it's a fluidy kind of gelatinous. They call it soul or SOL, which is a whole nother conversation, but that tissue will harden, so it dehydrates and it hardens up. I've also come to realize, we start talking about the fluid in our body and oh, we're over 70% water, whatever that is. You hear when?

Jack:
Yeah. Where is that? Is it blood?

Marce:
I thought it was, I thought, oh, it's like your blood or your lymph

Jack:
Now,

Marce:
Or

Jack:
Whatever's in my bladder. I'm

Marce:
Understanding, right?

Jack:
This is just 14%. Yeah,

Marce:
It's probably that EZ water as well. The water that lives in the fascia in the gel

Speaker 4:
State,

Marce:
There is a water in that collagen fibrin tissue that the exclusionary zone is then created. So it

Jack:
That's the easy stands for exclusionary zone zone. This is something I learned about recently. The fourth state of water is called EZ water, which is negatively ion

Marce:
Charged

Jack:
Water in your body, which does things mechanistically different than a positively or neutrally charged water. It behaves like a data network. I don't know.

Marce:
So that water pulls the negative ions in and I guess pumps the protons out, and there's a whole, I guess, energy created in that pump system, which is very fascinating and beyond my scientific

Jack:
Ability to explain. It's like we're finally starting to scratch the surface of the scientific explanation for what ancient Chinese chi was maybe seeing, but kind of spiritualizing. Right.

Marce:
Well, I think the meridian systems in my world, they are kind of non-spiritual because it really is just energetic pathways and the idea that we are not energetic or have energetic pathways just completely is why our western system looks the way I think it does.

Jack:
Right? Because as soon as you hear like, Ooh, energy, it's kind of like a woo woo, like, oh, is there crystal?

Marce:
Right?

Marce:
Right.

Jack:
It's like no.

Marce:
Right.

Jack:
The whole point of the matrix is we are human batteries that the whole movie is like that's what

Marce:
The

Jack:
Robots turned us into. Human batteries. We store so much electricity, and so

Marce:
An electron is a negatively charged particle.

Jack:
We are like fluid batteries if

Marce:
It water. Exactly, and we are made of minerals and electrons. We're just charged up

Speaker 4:
Goo

Marce:
Circuit board, but the information has to get from the central nervous system out into the peripheral. So how does that happen?

Jack:
Yeah, because the actual nerves themselves don't cover all of the body.

Marce:
If

Jack:
You ever look at a map of the, they cover a lot. They go all over.

Marce:
They do.

Jack:
They don't cover everything.

Marce:
And why would there be neurotransmitters then if the nerve itself could just carry it

Jack:
So the neurotransmitters are in your blood? Fascia may sense signals.

Marce:
I think if there's a signal disruption or we've talked about two people with lacking of minerals and all of the nutrition aspect of the amount of minerals we have in our body, magnesium, copper, manganese, iodine. There's just all of the spectrum of minerals that I think when that system is charged up,

Marce:
Our

Marce:
Energy is flowing better, our brains are working better, our nervous system works better, our gut, everything is getting the correct information.

Speaker 4:
When

Marce:
You put a blockade in the middle of the road or a kink in the hose, then is that information going to get to where it wants to get to? Probably not

Jack:
For your techie people. It's like dropping packets on your network. Most of the data still gets there, but bits don't and it causes problems.

Marce:
Right. And I think most of what's happening is that dysregulation because it's a miscommunication in the body somewhere. The body wants to get back to neutral, but most likely it's something that you're doing that is not allowing it to get there,

Speaker 4:
Whether

Marce:
It's something you're taking in exogenously or if it's even just mental stress, I think can affect our minerals.

Jack:
Yeah, and there's two things. Hopefully I can remember both of them now that I've said that there will be two things. That's something I always do. I'll set up a point and be like, I've got two things to say about that, and I can only remember one of 'em, but one is that EZ water. I was researching it, and you are, I might have the numbers a bit wrong, and we can fact check this and put it in the notes. That's what podcasters do. We put it in the show notes, but your nerves can send data in three nanoseconds or micro, whatever's even smaller than nanoseconds, whatever it is. It's like three or, but the EZ water, your fascial system can do a hundred thousand times faster.

Marce:
So

Jack:
Your nervous system is slow compared to your fascial system when it comes to telling your muscles to do stuff, telling your nerves to do things. They kind of go pre-war up everything before the nerves. Even now lift a thing. That's how it works. Whoa, I didn't know that there's this whole other system happening. No,

Marce:
It's so cool

Jack:
And so fast. It is. That's the fastest thing in your body. It can move data so insanely fast and yeah, I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head. No,

Marce:
I mean we're the best computer, but it's at the same time we are a mechanism, and so if you slap your computer and throw it down the stairs and then expect it to work, some of

Speaker 4:
It might work. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be made more

Marce:
If it was made really well, but

Speaker 4:
I

Marce:
Do think that we just expect more from our bodies than we expect from any other machine in our lives. And if people could just give themselves the same amount of attention support, throwing money at, people will throw money at their car, boat,

Jack:
Your hobby things,

Marce:
Lights and things. I mean purses. The purses. I see. It's like if you would focus that amount of effort on

Jack:
Your

Marce:
Body, on the mechanism that counts the most. In my opinion.

Jack:
I've drunk the Kool-Aid now. This is a big part of every day or at least most days, is thinking about this stuff and it's like, I'd love to get it. I want to nerd out and do a podcast where I will run out of stuff to say real quick, but you know this stuff, so this is great.

Marce:
I know a little bit about a lot of stuff.

Jack:
Yes, let's be honest. A lot about a lot of stuff. I did remember the second thing for those who are tracking, the other thing I thought was very interesting is how when compensating for pain or sore muscles or joints or whatever, so say you've got a really weak core and my head's forward, so now as gravity's now pushing down on me, what's it going to do Now? I'm going to stack like this, so now my lower back have to shift my hips forward, and now I'm over activating my quad quads. And so the way my body wants to move is the easy path. That's the most efficient way. But when I've got these problems or when I allow poor posture or whatever to force my body to run with all of these backup compensations, that's low level work that your nervous system has to do all the time now.

Marce:
And

Jack:
So your capacity, say if you have a hundred percent capacity to do whatever, run, lift, play, fish, whatever your things are, but 40% of it is used to make your body just work because you're using the wrong muscle groups and the wrong things. Now, your capacity to handle things as diminished, and I think that's where anxiety can come in. You need your whole body, your whole nervous system to process just the hormones and chemicals that go through your body like fight or flight. Adrenaline is good. We need adrenaline. It's important. You need all these different neurotransmitters all serve a purpose, but when your body's too busy just trying to keep itself upright, you don't have your whole body to flush that stuff out and work through it all. And so now all of a sudden now your feedback loop is way tighter, and that's where all this other layer of problems come out of it. I'm like, oh my God, makes so much sense. I've got this really poorly stacked set of cars where we're like, my body's like, oh my God, don't move. There's so much work to make you move and in my

Marce:
Twenties or something bad might happen or something bad.

Jack:
Yeah, exactly. Something bad might happen when I do move. Exactly. I did it again. I hurt the thing. Right.

Marce:
Well, and that's the problem, even with chiropractic going, okay, your C spines like this and this is like this, but then you go back, satisfy back, and you do all that same stuff then so you're still completely out of whack. It's like you're not pushing the tension into the muscular tissue to actually hold the body up in a different way, to position it differently, push

Jack:
The bones to where maybe they want to be,

Marce:
And

Jack:
The muscles are like, yeah, but I like it back here.

Marce:
And that's where I always tell people, your bones don't just flop around inside your body. You know what I mean? They're not just like this idea of in and out, and I do have a squirly rib and it does go in and out, so I understand, but it's not so in and so out. There's a tissue that's pulling on it. There's something else that happens, and so when my muscle twists up, it pulls the rib head.

Speaker 4:
Now it's got Right.

Marce:
The chiropractor can fix it and that's great, but when they're doing it much longer, and especially with the cervical spine, there are some great cervical chiropractors though, so I don't want to poo poo everyone. I have a great one too, so

Speaker 4:
Fair enough. Give me his name or her name. Yeah, exactly.

Marce:
But once again, do all of them completely understand the comprehensive or are they just trying to get you in and get you out? That's another problem I think with all capitalistic portions of our society, unfortunately, is that they're not necessarily based on what result they're getting. They're just trying to suck up as many people as they can. Yeah.

Jack:
They're optimizing for profit and also minimizing litigation, getting sued, so that's the whole standard of care. Your doctor's not going to recommend you do something that's not cleared by insurance for them to recommend, because otherwise you can get sued for it,

Marce:
Which

Jack:
Is why they

Marce:
Got to cover their butts and

Jack:
Why care has gotten so bad lately

Marce:
And

Jack:
Why it took 20, 21 different specialists to not tell me anything.

Marce:
Well, and that's when I realized too, I did want to become a doctor, and I see how paralyzed you get in that and you can't say the things that you want to say. And so because of how I am personality wise was like, well, I don't want to do that.

Speaker 4:
Exactly.

Marce:
I can't have somebody telling me what to do all the time. So yeah, I had to choose another route where I could still help people, but I don't feel right. The oppressive weight of a system on top of me, my sister's a doctor and she has to have malpractice insurance that covers her, I think 20 years after she's quits, 10 or 20 years after she stops actually ever practicing. That's a long time.

Jack:
Yeah. That's crazy. Right?

Marce:
Pressures that they are under. Right. I am not saying they have to do what they have to do

Jack:
Now. That's where we've gone

Marce:
Until

Jack:
You have to, someone will sue 19 years later.

Marce:
Exactly.

Jack:
Yeah.

Marce:
Who knows? Oh,

Jack:
It's tough. It's tough out there. It is really tough, and it has gotten worse in the last five years,

Marce:
Obviously,

Jack:
But we can save those thoughts for another day.

Marce:
But I do think if people just knew that they could be making small changes on a daily basis and giving themselves the grace to do something new that they've never done before, and also look at themselves objectively instead of from a judgmental perspective, I think too, that's why a lot of doctors don't want to tell people to eat differently or whatever, sit up straight, whatever. It's because they feel like they're going to kind of hurt their feelings. But when I do tell my clients, Hey, why does your foot stick out like that? Or Do you notice that you do this weird thing?

Speaker 4:
They're

Marce:
Always like, thank you. Whereas for a long

Speaker 4:
Time realize I was doing that.

Marce:
I didn't want to tell them too, because I felt the same, I think as all those other professionals that, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings. Or maybe I can do all the other stuff I do and still fix their problems without them,

Jack:
Without having to make them feel bad about themselves

Marce:
Or even them being aware of how much I'm doing. Let me do the work. I'm the professional, and then they just show up. But it's like the people I get the best results from are people who partner with me and who really want to see the change happen in themselves. If they don't, then they will get what they put the effort into, I guess. Just like all things, right?

Speaker 4:
Yeah. Cool.

Marce:
There's

Marce:
Always our own efforts that matter, so that's what I try to, I don't know, for the last five years, I've really changed the way I work with people, I think. And if you had met me five years ago, I might not have said some of the things that I said now. That's

Jack:
Fair. That's fair. Well, I'm glad that I had the problems I did when I did, and not longer ago, I suppose.

Marce:
Well, I had to change my own mentality, and I do think functional patterns, and I know that they have a lot of hard, even still, some of the lives they're sometimes hard to watch or things like that. And when I was watching them, he was really hard on women and hard on how we think about ourselves and how we project ourselves into reality. And some of that was really hard to hear, but I think when you can objectively look at yourself once again and not just be like, oh, that guy sex. I was like, right. I did some of that too. But then it was like, oh my gosh, no, he's right. And I've changed so much. I mean, really the way I project myself in reality, the way I don't take in certain substances anymore that were just causing me way more harm than good. There's just so many little things that you don't really realize affect how you see the world, really, how you're actually perceiving things around you until you can perceive yourself differently. And I think

Speaker 4:
That

Marce:
Was the gift I got from them. Even though it was a, I earned it, it was not given to

Jack:
Me. Well, I mean, it is like the whole functional patterns thing is, it's like they give you a bunch of tools, but it's kind of up to you to apply them and work them out and understand them, which does allow us to have room to go into some of those things that you've developed yourself out of the root of those ideas without it being a conflict, which can be pretty interesting. It has been great. And doing all the work in front of, I used to not want to work out in front of a mirror.

Marce:
We

Jack:
Do everything in front of a mirror, two mirrors in your studio. You've got two mirrors front and back, so you can see you're looking at yourself. I now can independently move muscles that I didn't even know I had that I can, boop, boop, I can touch 'em and move and move things. It's kind of fun.

Marce:
Bringing your visual awareness to them too, makes you connect to them. And that's been a large problem I've had with some of the women that I trained, and even people who stopped training because they didn't want to train in front of the mirror. And I'm like, it's just a mirror.

Jack:
It's just a mirror. You are who you are.

Marce:
You don't get to not be you anymore. And yeah,

Jack:
That's it. You can put your head in the sand if

Marce:
Get you right, then you'll never be able to look at anything else, I don't think.

Jack:
Yeah. Yeah. It definitely starts with just being honest with yourself. You could want to be better. You could used to be better in your mind or look better, be thinner or less broken in your head or whatever. But you are who you are right now. And as long just be honest with it and start working on it. It makes a huge difference.

Marce:
Exactly. And not judge yourself. You are where you are today. Doesn't mean if I showed you my before and afters, the exciting bit is the change.

Speaker 4:
If

Marce:
I just had my afters, I'd be like, oh, that wasn't very hard for

Jack:
You. I look pretty good for a guy who used to weigh 400 pounds, right?

Marce:
Or a person

Jack:
Did

Marce:
Yoga for 20 years with a banana body, and I had no tension and horrible head pain all the time. I mean constantly. And then what I had to do to make myself not have pain is using different substances. So it's just, yeah, it compounds. People don't realize how much pain compounds into true dysfunction, really. You start thinking about yourself negatively. You start thinking about people negatively, other people.

Jack:
That was that feedback loop I found myself in.

Marce:
It's like you get very, I don't know. That's why I call my business results wellness too. It was like if I can get people to change something, feel better in that hour, hour and a half, then they go home and they're nicer to their kids. They're nicer to their wife, they're nicer at work, whatever it is, they can take that energy and move it

Speaker 4:
In

Marce:
A direction that's more positive for them instead of just kind of circling the drain into the hopelessness and despair that most people

Jack:
Tend

Marce:
To come to me in.

Jack:
Yeah, I mean, my wife thinks you, and the things that we've gone through is I was not really there. I was physically there, but I wasn't really there for my family for a while. For two years where it was, I was so much brain fog, I just couldn't think about anything else. Why can't I, why can't I even think of what I'm thinking about? It's very close to me. And so you're constantly like, oh, right, I'm having dinner and I'm just kept getting lost in what's wrong with me trying to figure myself out. But I had no idea how to think out of all of it. And so getting out on the other side, I remember when Jen was like, you're back. And that was awesome. I was like, hell yeah. I am back. I didn't even realize that at first. I was like, oh, this is good. So I feel like my sense of humor started to come back, and my desire to do things came back

Marce:
Well for me too. I had the bandwidth to work. I have to work, I have to have a house within, and I have to eat food and pay for my cat. I'm like, that was my focus. So I would prop myself up and then I would come home and I would drink alcohol to put myself back to sleep. And it was just like this constant cycle. And it was never after my car accident that really effed me up. It was just, that's all I could see was how to get to work, how to get home, and then sleep for 12 hours. And on my days off, I used to not work before 11.

Jack:
Okay.

Marce:
Sorry.

Jack:
Can't do it.

Marce:
Can't work on you. Before 11 that I needed the morning, I needed it to get myself up, ice packs lay there. Sometimes I would just sleep literally till 10 o'clock and then go right into work. It was just really just kicking the can down the road. And I was there more for my clients than I was for myself. And that was, but I didn't have a boyfriend. I didn't have anything really going. I didn't have a kid. So I was just able to isolate and be on my own.

Speaker 4:
And

Marce:
That's super, not depressing at all.

Jack:
Right. Quality of life a little different now.

Marce:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jack:
I

Marce:
Mean, luckily I have some friends who would come over, but yeah, it was not the happiest time of my life by any means, but I'm an asshole and I will work myself to death to get out of that. I will find anything to just claw my way out. And so I did. There you go.

Jack:
Nice.

Marce:
Several times, unfortunately. But hey, I've got the skills now.

Jack:
That's right. You're more equipped to handle and recover quicker and keep yourself from going.

Marce:
And I feel empathy really for people who have gone through that, and it's not from a place of like, oh, it must be hard for you. It's like, no, I really know how that actually looks,

Jack:
And I can feel that. You feel that in a way where I pick someone on the list of specialists, I've been to the vestibular person, Hey, here's what I'm feeling. And they're like, okay, well, let's put you on the machine and spin you. You're like, okay, this is going to be really hard for me, by the way, it's already spit. Okay. No, all yeah, we're just going to do it all. Yeah,

Marce:
Let's throw your head back in the

Jack:
Happily

Marce:
Maneuvers or whatever.

Jack:
Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Marce:
I've been there too.

Jack:
Yeah. I'll walk in the room for a session and sometimes you're like, Hmm, you're off. We're going to change the plan. You can just see it. You've been there, you've seen it so many times. How did you know

Marce:
Or how, I mean, I went and got my crystals done, I don't know how many times, and they threw my head and floral me around. I end up worse.

Speaker 4:
Oh,

Marce:
That's 150 bucks for 10, 15 minutes. Thanks. And then, and then I'm just having to sit on the couch till I can drive myself back over the bridge. It's like,

Jack:
Yeah, I've paid for my share. I believe in Ubers. I wouldn't even take

Marce:
Much from somebody if you don't do anything, I will work until it's done.

Marce:
I

Marce:
Know that's another problem that I have, but I can't let a person just leave. Okay, see ya. No, no. I think that that's strange. That's in the world of do no harm. Having a dizzy person get into a car is,

Jack:
I don't know. Yeah. There's a chance for harm to be done,

Marce:
I feel like. So

Jack:
Yeah, you made a house call once you came to my house. I couldn't move. My vertigo was so bad after a dumb thing I did. It's a journey just because we figured out what the problem is and if are able to manage it, great. Most of the time, there are some up moments. There's some down moments. I had a down moment. You came to my house and helped, and I am not the only one.

Marce:
I will do that.

Jack:
There's a house call in 2025. Shoot.

Marce:
It was awesome. Only if you know me.

Jack:
Yeah. It's for word of mouth referrals only. Once

Marce:
You're mine, then you're mine. But yeah,

Jack:
You're

Marce:
Not mine. You're not mine. This

Jack:
Is not for everybody.

Marce:
Not my problem though.
No, I do think I'm uniquely suited to that because I have gone through it so much and yes, had to process different versions of it too. Started with one then after my car accident, kind of had another type, and then so I just constantly learned through my own issues. But then also, luckily I have all these lovely people and they're dysfunctions that I can start to pattern out too. So it's like, oh, if you have this, you probably have this, this, this, this. And then you start forming your own protocols. And then it does become a little bit more streamlined instead of in the beginning, me like, oh, let's do this, this, this. And trying to just see what would stick. Now I kind of know. Yeah, if you look at this, it's probably like this. And yeah. Could I ever explain that to anyone? Probably not. It just lives in my head.

Jack:
Yeah, you need an apprentice.

Marce:
Yeah. Have to idealism.

Jack:
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, we've sent a number of people your way, and it's like, I can just tell, oh, Marcy can fix you for sure. And sometimes it's one session. I'm a little jealous because sometimes not as systemic of a problem. Yeah. It's like

Marce:
Some of your friends have easier problems than you.

Jack:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Marce:
But that's fun too. And it does show, right? It's just depending on what's going on with you. It's not really me. I'm not trying to keep you. Yeah, exactly.

Jack:
Yeah. Your business model isn't get you on a three a week plan for six months and pre-sell you, and you're like, no, no,

Marce:
Exactly. I don't want to see you. I'm just kidding. All my clients, I love you. I'm just kidding.

Jack:
We can be friends. You don't have to be in the room

Marce:
Or as needed. My chiropractor, I'm like, do I need to come back next week? She's always as needed. And it's like, I feel like when you put that out there, it does feel more relaxed. They're not expecting you to be coming back and there's not, right. There's all this structure that's not going to work if you don't. I feel like a lot of things are built up that we put all this pressure on ourselves, even in the healing mode, that if we do these 10 things, but we did the one, we ate the cookie,

Speaker 4:
It's

Marce:
Like, but it's really not that big of a deal. If you did the 10 things right, then maybe chill out about the cookie and then maybe tomorrow, circle back,

Speaker 4:
What

Marce:
Can you cut out of the 10 things or

Speaker 4:
Things

Marce:
Like that. So you do have to just start somewhere though.

Jack:
You do.

Marce:
So that's what we're here for.

Jack:
Yeah. Well, I feel like we're probably, I don't even know, I can't even see from the camera how long we've been going, but for an average person who's been sitting at a computer for years who maybe has aches and pains and doesn't realize that's why, is there maybe a tip or two we could leave people with this episode that maybe they could take with them to hold 'em over to the next episode so they come back?

Marce:
Should we do sitting posture?

Jack:
Sitting? Yeah. I mean, posture's a good place to start, right?

Marce:
Okay.

Jack:
Yeah. The people at the coffee shop outside when I walk by, they go like this. Yeah.

Marce:
Well, and I think obviously when you start to focus on where your center of mass is, that will be the easiest way to determine really what your body's doing. So mirrors of course,

Marce:
And

Marce:
Then the sensations that you feel.

Marce:
But

Marce:
Generally, you're going to be slumping, so there's going to be a C in this direction. Oh, I guess you can't see me. So bringing ourselves into some form of a thoracic extension. So usually our lumbar spine is already in some sort of extension in that anterior pelvic tilt. We need to swap that. So we need to change our lumbar spine more into a posterior flexion.

Jack:
And the difference between anterior and posterior,

Marce:
Posterior

Jack:
Anterior is ass out. So if you think about popping your booty out, you,

Marce:
And we could even do a narration after something, maybe like a sitting

Jack:
Person. Yes, we could do that.

Marce:
Just so you could see from the side. So yeah.

Jack:
Yeah.

Marce:
Also, where is your ear in line with your shoulder?

Jack:
It should be in line with your shoulder, right? That's where it should be.

Marce:
Is it though,

Jack:
But right, is it? But it should be.

Marce:
Yeah, it should be in line with the shoulder, so it should be probably more farther back. But some people do this weird back thing too,

Marce:
So

Marce:
It just depends. That's why the mirror is helpful. Where are you in space? I think that's the question. If we start to answer that, we can change where we are in space.

Jack:
And so that classic good posture is what chin up, shoulders back.

Marce:
It is not true.

Jack:
That's not good posture,

Marce:
Right?

Jack:
Yes.

Marce:
So I always tell people, what would you do if you were about to get into a fight?

Jack:
I mean, I'd bring my shoulders forward a little bit. I would bring myself up a little bit.

Marce:
You kind of puff shoulders up. So that's one of the bases where we start, obviously is this good posture. Obviously it's not so extreme. We take you into an extreme and we will kind of dampen it down.

Jack:
So that's busting out of your cast, right?

Marce:
Exactly. So

Jack:
You're coming up out of the space you normally, so that when you rest, you've moved your baseline forward a little bit.

Marce:
And if your usual baseline is trying to push your shoulders really far back and kind of pinch your shoulder blades together,

Marce:
Pushing

Marce:
Them forward and getting some scapular attraction, it just should feel nice too. Sometimes you'll even get a little cramp in your back because your back's not used to doing that. So just starting to look, identifying tension, identifying center of mass head. Where is it in space? Then that's also, where's your jaw in space? Do you like to tuck it? Do you push it forward?

Jack:
Do you clench it when you work? This is one of my problems. I just clench without, not this much, but I'm always tucking it and clenching it, sort of engaging my jaw muscle all the time.

Marce:
Yeah, there's usually some sort of subconscious pattern that you've gone into tension wise where you're holding the tension in these incorrectly.

Jack:
I've done a counter before. As soon as I notice it, count it in a minute, I'll do 23 times, and I'm actively knowing that I'm trying to not clench. And it's maybe not at one minute, 23 is too much, but it's like every five or six seconds. As soon as I don't think, as soon as I let go actively thinking about it within five seconds, I'm clenching again most of the time,

Marce:
Still

Jack:
Working on it.

Marce:
So once again, we've talked about we can't erase programs once they're in there,

Jack:
So

Marce:
You have to rewrite over it

Jack:
Like a hard drive.

Marce:
So when your teeth clench, you actually take that and use it as the

Speaker 4:
Prompt

Marce:
Push button for the new program. So now your new program is all the tension goes into the tongue

Marce:
On the

Marce:
Roof of the mouth, and it suctions up to the roof of the mouth. Like a little suction pad.

Marce:
Like

Speaker 4:
A

Marce:
Sticky suction pad on your shower. Exactly.

Speaker 4:
Yeah.

Marce:
So then as soon as you do that with your teeth, you use that as the prompt. I told you I have a tooth one too, so I like to cram my teeth together in the front

Speaker 4:
To

Marce:
Where I'm also not good, wearing a little hole in my

Speaker 4:
Teeth.

Marce:
And so yes, the dentist was like, whatcha doing? You're probably not going to have teeth if you keep doing that, the front teeth at that. So now as soon as I make that motion, I push it into my tongue and I've retrained myself. Now, that's part of that is the program. The teeth happen, and then the tongue happen.

Jack:
The teeth tell you to do the thing. And then the idea is eventually,

Marce:
I feel like I don't know if I'll ever be able to now get out of that. That's the program, and I at least stop doing the teeth the second the teeth have in my tongue, and now I'm subconsciously in my tongue all the time. So I'm like, well, I can't necessarily get out of my teeth, but I can at least use the teeth as a trigger to access where I really should be holding my tension all the time, which is that tongue. There

Jack:
You go. There's the training.

Marce:
Yeah.

Jack:
Yeah.

Marce:
So it's just you got to trick yourself, though. Our nervous system is a tricky little bitch doesn't want to do what we want it to do.

Jack:
That should be a t-shirt most

Marce:
Of the time.

Jack:
Yeah. My nervous system is

Marce:
Unfortunately, is

Jack:
I

Marce:
Was working with a client yesterday and she was like, I was doing something, and she's like, usually this would hurt so bad, but at this point in the session it feels so good. And I was like, right, I'm actually having a conversation with your nervous system though. And so there are points in time where I'm going to trick it. I'm trying to confuse it in a way so that it will stop doing what it's been doing. It needs to do something differently,

Jack:
Knock it off.

Marce:
So how does my nervous system communicate with your nervous system in a way that it actually gets the information? I think a lot of massage therapists aren't really concerning themselves with that aspect of the treatment at all. I've had tons of clients or massages where people will just drop my head. It's like

Marce:
You're

Marce:
Only a quarter of an inch off the table, but that makes you guard yourself

Jack:
Or,

Marce:
And

Jack:
Now your body's trying to protect itself,

Marce:
Right? They're going too quickly or they're using way too much lotion and they're just slipping over that big giant knot that you really want them to dig into. And so your nervous system is actually getting pissed off. This is the person that's supposed to be doing some of this stuff, and actually they're activating things, but they're never completing it, so they're just kind of stimulating already highly stimulated areas. So that's why a lot of people don't like massage or they say, yeah,

Jack:
Because is overstimulating some many bad ones.

Marce:
That's

Jack:
A very common problem now with even young kids, is just chronic overstimulation,

Marce:
Right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Marce:
And our ability to soothe self-soothe ourselves. And how does that nervous system learn how to start soothing itself too out of when we're in these traumatic positions or more high stress work environments? How does our system find balance, essentially in nonviolent war,

Speaker 4:
Basically, right? Yeah, exactly.

Marce:
Our bodies are stimulated. They are in some type of battle, and so we feel like there might be physical threat to ourselves, our adrenals or cortisol. All these things are pumping.

Jack:
It has gotten, at least to a degree, it's good that we're talking about if you're on social media, people out there are talking about maybe about the fascia system, but talking about fight or flight cortisol, we're at least starting to be like, oh, there's something, why? What's going on? But then the influencer world just kind of jumps in with products to sell them.

Marce:
Like nicotine patches or something in

Jack:
Your Yeah, it's like, not that there aren't good products out there that can help you do certain things, but there's so much, I mean, if you're talking about easy least hanging fruit, lowest hanging fruit, there's so many things you could do yourself before you have to spend a dollar that,

Marce:
Well, we're also not allowing our bodies to be the magnificent creatures that they are. We want to just constantly put in endogenous, exogenous chemicals or whatever. So it's just like we're just constantly putting chemicals into ourselves and not really seeing what our normal hormone system, our normal nervous system, what it could achieve. But if you look at, well, I guess the Greek and the Romans, they had their own thing going on, but there was some chemical usage back then.

Jack:
I'm sure they found some.

Marce:
But you do see ancient civilizations. I don't think they were constantly propped up by caffeine and all of the different things that we are using today, all the heavy stimulants and then all the downers, and then you want to lose weight. Well, there's some tirzepatide. There's just always an answer for any problem that you have pharmacologically, and it's,

Speaker 4:
It's a overstimulation,

Marce:
Your body's ability to handle the situation. And I think you're toning your nervous system in the correct direction. You're not really giving yourself and your body a chance to even respond or rise to the occasion that you're putting it in. You're just constantly being like, oh, no. I think that has been, for me, the eye opener too, that I do it to myself. If I

Speaker 4:
Am

Marce:
Overstimulated, we grab our phones. I think I told you, I took my daughter to the dentist and all the kids are overstimulated. They all had phones. I didn't give her my phone, but I held her leg, and I was like, pay attention to my arm on your leg. And I'm like, even that's like this pacifying device. So I'm like not letting her system feel stress and handle the stress. And it's not dangerous stress. It's just the dent. It's just a very nice man touching her teeth and going, oh, hey, you're good. You got

Jack:
A wily one. Yeah, right.

Marce:
Just so, but we're protecting our children from any little thing, and I think I realize I'm protecting myself as well from any little thing, even just getting me into this podcast.

Jack:
I know. That's it. We did it. We're in the room. We're nearly done the first episode.

Marce:
But my nervous system, right? It's like I want to just push away the uncomfortable and reach for my pacifiers,

Jack:
And

Marce:
I'm 45.

Jack:
Exactly. I mean, I've

Marce:
Always done the same. Don't blame the eight year olds.

Jack:
My relationship with food is very unhealthy. We can talk about food and stuff, and maybe another episode

Marce:
Digestion we're going to have. Yeah,

Jack:
We're going to talk on that. We're going to get into that. I've got a lot of things in the past. I lost a lot of weight a while ago, put some of it back on, and now I unfortunately have gotten in a pattern of realizing that carbs soothe my nervous system. And so when I'm feeling off, I eat. And so it's very hard for me to lose weight as long as that pattern is in place.

Marce:
That's not a horrible pattern. And I can show you a metabolic diet lady who actually, it is a very important, carbs actually are what our body needs when we're in stress.

Jack:
But are you talking about three bowls of live cereal at 2:00 AM Probably not.

Marce:
No, I'm talking about a small cup of orange juice.

Jack:
Oh, okay. Yeah, let's talk about it.

Marce:
Maybe some collagen powder or

Jack:
Something

Marce:
Mix into, okay,

Jack:
Fair. Yeah, I, I'll swing between doing that, which is one extreme I will be, that's how I self-soothe, at least sometimes when I'm weak. And then I'll overcompensate with a wildly restrictive diet like the next day, which I'll break on the next day after that,

Marce:
Because now you get a headache because now you have no carb.

Jack:
So while this stuff is doing great, I've gotten so much better. I feel like a human being. Again, the stuff you can't see below ways, Hey,

Marce:
That's later.

Jack:
That's later. And you gave me permission. Just focus on the big problem first, and then we'll work on the other thing. So that is something I want to pursue is dropping 20 pounds.

Marce:
Well, and honestly, that does just come, I think as your body finds its metabolic setpoint, the stress is reduced. The nervous system can relax. I mean, like I said, we can show my before and afters. That's just one year difference of functional patterns.

Marce:
But

Marce:
I was training three times a week. It was during COVID, so it was a much different reality. And obviously when you don't have to go to work every day, you can focus. And for me, I like to focus on my problems. So that's fun for me. So that's what I did. I mean, I was five days a week, I was in, I was watching the lives. I was doing something at least every day day I was in the cult, as that says. But

Jack:
That's kind of where I'm at right now. I'm really into it.

Marce:
Well, when you see, oh my gosh, for the first time in 10 years, I'm not waking up with a migraine every day. I'm not waking up with this dizzy pain in my head that I

Jack:
Can't

Marce:
Focus on anything and

Jack:
I can drive myself

Marce:
To work

Jack:
For a while. My wife had to drive me places I couldn't drive.

Marce:
Oh, I have several clients that

Jack:
Are

Marce:
Like that, but there's an end to that. A lot of 'em were driving. By the end, we could get maybe other people. Exactly. But it is so key when your cervical instability becomes stable, it's like the light switch, right? It's really right in the central nervous system, the central canal disrupting your spine from your brain.

Jack:
The two, I mean, this is it, right? This is where all of the magic happens.

Marce:
Yes.

Jack:
Right. I think you've said it in the past. Was it like eight super highways all converging to a little country road going up to,

Marce:
Yeah.

Jack:
You've got these,

Marce:
The smallest gravel road, right? Eight lane, super highway.

Jack:
Yeah. All your arteries, all your major, all that stuff then goes up, and then you have a really tight neck because you've pushed it forward and locked it, and all the nerves go through there that then go down to your gut and your vagus nerve. There's so many things that are all happening right here,

Marce:
And

Jack:
Then when you can actually decompress it, all of a sudden things have a chance to work the way they're supposed to. Again,

Marce:
Right now, that highway of information is actually reaching the brain. Wow. Now I can think I can experience my life again in a full capacity. It's night and day. It's pretty great. Yeah. Thank

Jack:
You.

Marce:
It's my pleasure. I mean, I'm fortunate enough that I got the answers for myself, but that's part of the wounded healer journey. Whatever archetype is that we have to go through it first, and then when we do, we get the answers and we can crawl out of the ground, go and bring the gifts back to everyone else. So you have to go on the journey.

Jack:
Yeah. Well, hopefully you guys want to go on this journey on the podcast with us. We talked about a lot of things. On a high level, we can nerd out in individual episodes about all this kind of stuff

Marce:
Or any specific questions.

Jack:
Yeah, good transition. If anybody has problems, questions, things, you want to pick Marcy's brain and have me kind of make faces while you're doing it, you can send your questions or you can record a video and send it to us at set up an email address, mailbag at recovery mode fm. We'll put that on the screen and it'll be in the links and all this stuff. So love it. If you have questions, just send 'em over and then if we don't have any, we won't mention it. We'll just say, you can send questions next time, and if we have a lot, we'll figure out what we can do to actually,

Marce:
We'll take

Jack:
Help and talk about 'em on the show, break it down. Otherwise, we can continue to use my experience and different things as a path through. You showed me your notes file of everything you want to talk about. There's so much stuff we can nerd out about all sorts of things that would be so good for you to understand, to learn, things you can do with a lacrosse ball, things you can do with stuff at home. We'll

Marce:
Start doing some myf rolling segments.

Jack:
Yeah. Learn how to do releases,

Marce:
Right? Specific protocol that you can follow at home. Yeah. Yeah.

Jack:
Awesome. We'll see how it goes. Okay. Alright.

Marce:
Sounds good.

Jack:
How do we end it? Did you just end it?

Marce:
Should we do like recovery mode? Just kidding. I've never been on a sports team and now go sports.

Speaker 4:
Yeah.

Jack:
Yeah. I

Speaker 4:
Don't know.

Marce:
It looks like Have fun. That looks like the fun part. That looks

Jack:
Like fun.

Marce:
No, just kidding.

Jack:
Yeah. No, that's awkward. Just kidding. Yeah. Alright, that's probably it. We'll be back.

Marce:
Alright. Alright. Bye guys. Bye. Nice.

Jack:
We did a thing!